39780-39804
39780 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 0:16pm
Subject: [FS] 35" SSR's and wheels possible trade
Price: $450 obo or trade for ???
Contact: Matt 602-284-0414 mosgood@goprolink.com
35x14.50 Super Swamper SSR's
Rears are prob 40% and fronts are 60% on 15x10 black steel wheels. Wheels are 2 months old. I am looking to go to all terrains or something better suited for the highway. (I will be driving cross country soon) Let me know if you have anything for trade or are interested in purchasing these tires. I can email pics or we can meet.
Also- I am looking for two 15x8 or 15x10: 5 on 5 1/2 wheels with or without tires.
Matt Osgood
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
39781 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 0:32pm
Subject: Re: Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
We get one tour company and then another and another. Pretty soon there will be regularly scheduled tours (commercial ventures) beating a path through Martinez Canyon.This is an area that we'd like to enjoy for a few more years. If you know that BLM is considering shutting it down why mess it up for everyone else. Certainly it looks like you can't expect support from the AzVJC as a commercial tour operator in Martinez Canyon. I agree with the "vocal members"
So pick another trail and see what the group thinks, if approval is important to you. Maybe Doug would like to suggest another trail. Maybe someone from the group has a suggestion as to which trail he might use instead of Martinez Canyon.
Yes... Everyone has equal rights to the land, but to prostitute sensitive land by making a commercial venture, and hauling many, many tours through it, seems to be very unpopular with the "more vocal members" of AzVJC.
Brian
K7BAL
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:08 PM
Subject: FW: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
Doug and others,
Note, I used the fictitious acronym below in the rewording of Doug's
E-mail. GFIOEBU = Greenies For the Eradication Of Everyone But Us.
Highlighted text are portions that I changed.
"While doing background work to fight the OHV USERS GROUP, the thought
occurred to me to check to see if that trail had been adopted by a
HIKING CLUB. My thought there was to alert them to the desire of a 4x4
club to make this a RECREATIONAL destination and enlist their
involvement in stopping this.
Anyway, I don't believe this trail has been adopted by anyone, so I
thought I'd post the question to the group. There's been talk about
GFIOEBU involvement in trail issues (which has been great in the
past)...."
David, Do you see the danger here? Put a Sierra Club hat on his head
and he would fit right in. Man! I really don't understand all of the
hostility. We're all on the same team. No? I'd like EVERYONE to have
the right to enjoy the land.
What's with this "pink unimog tours" thing. You would think we were the
evil empire! We are TWO GUYS AND A UNIMOG! Cripes! And it's not pink!
Also, what's so wrong with commercial enterprises. Mix entrepreneur
spirit with a genuine concern for our land and you have very positive
combination. If we were independently wealthy my partner and I would do
this for free! I enjoy it that much. But like most of us I need to
feed the kids and pay the mortgage.
Turning this into an "us against them" is only going to help those that
want to shut everything down to everyone. I hope the jeep clubs goal is
to preserve the trails fore EVERYONE to use. Not just a select few.
The only way this is going to happen is through policing. Policing of
ourselves and others. You see somebody being stupid, jeep club member
or other wise, get a plate #, if possible a picture, and turn them in!
You see a tour company damaging something DEFIANTLY turn them in. They
have been given the PRIVILEGE of financial gain on public land and
should be held to a higher standard. Banning certain people and not
others is BIG TIME WRONG. The only people who should be banned are
those that break the laws and disrespect the land. Once again, this
will only happen through policing.
Dave. I'd like to think that some of your more vocal jeep club members
have good intentions. And after reading some of the e-mail you have
been forwarding I can say yes they do. But some of this knee-jerk get
them off of OUR land reactionism is sad. I don't like being clumped
together with the tour companies that supposedly tear up the desert.
This is far from the truth. Yeh, I'll be making a buck out their and
THAT'S OK. But I'll also be educating the people I tour about all
(yours and mine) of our concerns regarding land use and abuse. Not to
mention cleaning up the trails. I don't understand why tour company
don't if what your club members say is true. That desert is their bread
and butter and keeping it healthy is in their best interests. At least
it's in mine.
Bruce
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
39782 From: Nick Gasmena <horizon@h...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 0:50pm
Subject: Re: price quick
I got a replace-a-top from best top which gave me my whole top and half
doors minus hardware for $420 or so.
Nick Gasmena - nickg@h...
-----------------------
Horizon Web Site - Http://www.HuskiesOnline.Com
My Jeep Pictures - http://www.azvjc.org/Gallery/View.asp?U=1637
My 4x4 Site - Http://www.huskiesonline.com/offroad
----- Original Message -----
From: "JW" <joew@a...>
To: "'James Towle'" <James.Towle@a...>; "'AZ_VJC'"
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 10:43 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] price quick
> $1,300
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 10:40 AM
> > To: AZ_VJC
> > Subject: [az_vjc] price quick
> >
> >
> > My insurance agent just asked for a value on my soft top including the
> > windows & upper half doors, does anyone have an idea?
> >
> > TIA
> >
> > --James
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
39783 From: msa12171 <msa12171@a...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 0:54pm
Subject: Re: [FS] 35" SSR's and wheels possible trade
I'm assuming that the wheels are 5 on 5.5? I have 5 on 4.5 and
looking for black steels. i have 5 AR bajas to trade.
Mike A.
39784 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 0:58pm
Subject: Re: Re: CB power source[Bronco One Bites!!!]
Heh, sounds like she talked to Allen - the owner. He does come across
as ****y as well as belittling (is that a word?). I think it's just the
way he is and I try not to take it personally. He actually is very
knowledgeable and he has a lot of practical experience and knows what
works and what doesn't in a lot of different scenarios.
Still, if he rubs you the wrong way, I don't blame you for going elsewhere.
-Roger
my1stjeep wrote:
>
> I wouldn't buy anything from Bronco One. Not sure who the sales
> person was there, but my wife went there on a recommendation to get me
> a Christmas present, a CB, the antenna and any other goodies she could
> find.
>
> She was treated like crap. She was made to feel like an idiot and
> that she was wasting their time. The more she asked questions so she
> could get me the right set up, the more impatient they grew. Guess
> whoever it was had a hot date, but their lack of customer service will
> keep me from spending a dime in their store. Either that or they have
> no patience if a customer is not 100% sure of exactly what they want
> and are asking questions, or maybe they don't know the answers so they
> rather you not ask.
>
> My wife then went to Apollo Communications(4322 W. Northern). There
> they talked to her like a human being, listened to what she wanted,
> explained to her the good points and bad points of certain equipment
> and spent alot of time making sure she was happy with what she bought.
> What I got for Christmas was perfect!!!
>
> If you want customer service go to Apollo.
>
> Chris
39785 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:12pm
Subject: Re: Installed CB VS Hand held
If you're talking about handheld CB radios then, yes, channel 4 is the
same as with an installed CB. If you're talking about a different type
of handheld radio - such as an FRS radio - then they are different.
Channel numbers are simply names for specific frequencies. Different
types of radio (eg. CB, FRS, ham, etc. are allocated different sets of
frequencies.
-Roger
Kim Monson wrote:
>
> For these runs, when you all specify you're on channel 4, is that the same
> for either an installed CB or a portable hand held? I've heard different
> things. Since I'm planning on selling my jeep, I don't want to install one
> right now. I will when I get my CJ7.
> Thanks. Kim
39786 From: Nick Gasmena <horizon@h...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:16pm
Subject: Re: Re: CB power source[Bronco One Bites!!!]
This is true... He is very ****y, but that is his personality. Once you
take a few trips down there and talk to him, you get to know him, and learn
that its no big thing. Ive never been to Apollo, so I might have to check
them out.
Nick Gasmena - nickg@h...
-----------------------
Horizon Web Site - Http://www.HuskiesOnline.Com
My Jeep Pictures - http://www.azvjc.org/Gallery/View.asp?U=1637
My 4x4 Site - Http://www.huskiesonline.com/offroad
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: CB power source[Bronco One Bites!!!]
> Heh, sounds like she talked to Allen - the owner. He does come across
> as ****y as well as belittling (is that a word?). I think it's just the
> way he is and I try not to take it personally. He actually is very
> knowledgeable and he has a lot of practical experience and knows what
> works and what doesn't in a lot of different scenarios.
>
> Still, if he rubs you the wrong way, I don't blame you for going
elsewhere.
>
> -Roger
>
> my1stjeep wrote:
> >
> > I wouldn't buy anything from Bronco One. Not sure who the sales
> > person was there, but my wife went there on a recommendation to get me
> > a Christmas present, a CB, the antenna and any other goodies she could
> > find.
> >
> > She was treated like crap. She was made to feel like an idiot and
> > that she was wasting their time. The more she asked questions so she
> > could get me the right set up, the more impatient they grew. Guess
> > whoever it was had a hot date, but their lack of customer service will
> > keep me from spending a dime in their store. Either that or they have
> > no patience if a customer is not 100% sure of exactly what they want
> > and are asking questions, or maybe they don't know the answers so they
> > rather you not ask.
> >
> > My wife then went to Apollo Communications(4322 W. Northern). There
> > they talked to her like a human being, listened to what she wanted,
> > explained to her the good points and bad points of certain equipment
> > and spent alot of time making sure she was happy with what she bought.
> > What I got for Christmas was perfect!!!
> >
> > If you want customer service go to Apollo.
> >
> > Chris
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
39787 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:28pm
Subject: Pink Unimog Tours.
I have been forwarding and replying to both sides, without my opinion. So here goes:
First.
The fact that Bruce had the respect and decency to get the approval and/or opinion of the AZVJC is a huge indicator that he cares more about the area and trail rather than money and is a very open minded individual. He has a lot of respect and concern for the sport.
Secondly.
Doug's initial closed minded activist type attitude was as bad as a greenie. If he disagreed he should have pointed out why and offered alternatives.
I love the area too, especially right b4 he mine and the sluice. So I would love to keep the area open too.
David R. W. Withers
Desk: 480.551.4667
Mobile: 480.215.6992
39788 From: <ralphdl@w...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:51pm
Subject: Anyone got a TJ hard top to sell?
I'm in Ajo, looking for a hard top to replace my 97 TJ soft top.
RalphDL@w...
39789 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 2:25pm
Subject: OT Radio Shack in Mesa is going out of business
Southern and Country Club
20% to 40% off.
If anyone is interested.
David R. W. Withers
Desk: 480.551.4667
Mobile: 480.215.6992
39790 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 2:46pm
Subject: Re: Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
I agree with Doug. Pick another trail. Martinez Canyon is too beautiful to
be lost. Start proposing commercial ventures in to it and it will be shut
down for sure. There has to be other trails that can be used for this
purpose.
Chris K
> From: "DougB" <azjeep@h...>
> Organization: @home
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:05:11 -0700
> To: "AZVJC \(E-mail\)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Ross Skinner"
> <rskinner@s...>
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
>
> Ross - I would certainly agree with your statement...which is why AzVJC
> adopting the trail is a good idea - that will do something positive to keep
> it open.
>
> The big issue here is the commercialization of the trail. This will elevate
> it to a much higher level of scrutiny. The Martinez Canyon area is already
> under a microscope, and I guess there are some that either don't realize
> this, or don't care. We need to look out for the long term relative to
> access.
>
> My point is that is the wrong trail to try to commercialize.
>
> Doug
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ross Skinner" <rskinner@s...>
> To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:44 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
>
>
>> I guess we have a very BAD image of other tour companies David/Bruce.
>>
>> The Sedona people really have screwed it up in that area and are a pain in
>> the butt. Since I own a business I can relate to your wanting to use a
>> resource and profit from it..that is OKAY. Now the trick is to do it so
>> interest groups don't put your head on a plater. My main worry with this
> is
>> not one Unimog, but dozens of Hummers and Pink jeeps once they discover
> your
>> successful trail tour.
>>
>> As a point in your favor, the AZVJC has put more riggs(less then capable)
> on
>> that trail then all other groups/businesses combined. So, we have some
>> burden as well.
>>
>> Ross
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@h...]
>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:08 PM
>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: FW: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
>>
>>
>>
>> Doug and others,
>>
>> Note, I used the fictitious acronym below in the rewording of Doug's
>> E-mail. GFIOEBU = Greenies For the Eradication Of Everyone But Us.
>> Highlighted text are portions that I changed.
>>
>> "While doing background work to fight the OHV USERS GROUP, the thought
>> occurred to me to check to see if that trail had been adopted by a
>> HIKING CLUB. My thought there was to alert them to the desire of a 4x4
>> club to make this a RECREATIONAL destination and enlist their
>> involvement in stopping this.
>>
>> Anyway, I don't believe this trail has been adopted by anyone, so I
>> thought I'd post the question to the group. There's been talk about
>> GFIOEBU involvement in trail issues (which has been great in the
>> past)...."
>>
>> David, Do you see the danger here? Put a Sierra Club hat on his head
>> and he would fit right in. Man! I really don't understand all of the
>> hostility. We're all on the same team. No? I'd like EVERYONE to have
>> the right to enjoy the land.
>>
>> What's with this "pink unimog tours" thing. You would think we were the
>> evil empire! We are TWO GUYS AND A UNIMOG! Cripes! And it's not pink!
>> Also, what's so wrong with commercial enterprises. Mix entrepreneur
>> spirit with a genuine concern for our land and you have very positive
>> combination. If we were independently wealthy my partner and I would do
>> this for free! I enjoy it that much. But like most of us I need to
>> feed the kids and pay the mortgage.
>>
>> Turning this into an "us against them" is only going to help those that
>> want to shut everything down to everyone. I hope the jeep clubs goal is
>> to preserve the trails fore EVERYONE to use. Not just a select few.
>> The only way this is going to happen is through policing. Policing of
>> ourselves and others. You see somebody being stupid, jeep club member
>> or other wise, get a plate #, if possible a picture, and turn them in!
>> You see a tour company damaging something DEFIANTLY turn them in. They
>> have been given the PRIVILEGE of financial gain on public land and
>> should be held to a higher standard. Banning certain people and not
>> others is BIG TIME WRONG. The only people who should be banned are
>> those that break the laws and disrespect the land. Once again, this
>> will only happen through policing.
>>
>> Dave. I'd like to think that some of your more vocal jeep club members
>> have good intentions. And after reading some of the e-mail you have
>> been forwarding I can say yes they do. But some of this knee-jerk get
>> them off of OUR land reactionism is sad. I don't like being clumped
>> together with the tour companies that supposedly tear up the desert.
>> This is far from the truth. Yeh, I'll be making a buck out their and
>> THAT'S OK. But I'll also be educating the people I tour about all
>> (yours and mine) of our concerns regarding land use and abuse. Not to
>> mention cleaning up the trails. I don't understand why tour company
>> don't if what your club members say is true. That desert is their bread
>> and butter and keeping it healthy is in their best interests. At least
>> it's in mine.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
39791 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 3:05pm
Subject: Re: Pink Unimog Tours.
David,
I agree with your comments about Bruce. His comments do make him sound
like a decent fellow. Of course, since I know neither him nor you, I can
only take that as hearsay. But I'm willing to give him the benefit of
the doubt.
As for your comments about Doug, I think they are a little harsh. I think
he did indicate why he was against a tour in Martinez Canyon. I also think
Doug's latest posts indicate that he's not against tours in general - just
tours through sensitive areas like Martinez Canyon. I guess Doug could
have been more clear about that earlier on in this debate. I believe the BLM
has already threatened to close the Lower Martinez Canyon (ie. the Jawbreaker
trail) so it seems we are walking (wheeling?) on thin ice. As a result, I
certainly share Doug's (and others') concerns.
Bruce's earlier comments about policing ourselves were good. And, the way
I see it, this debate is a form of policing ourselves. Hopefully, everyone
reading these posts will better understand the gravity of the situation out
in the Martinez Canyon area and police themselves when out there.
As a side note, I would tend to think that commercial tours would increase
the chances of a particular area being closed. But I don't know this for
sure. In fact, I don't at all know what the BLM thinks of tour companies.
I think I will plan a visit to my local BLM office to discuss their views
on commercial tour businesses and whether or not - from their perspective -
tour business are more likely to motivate the BLM to close particular areas.
-Roger
> "David R. W. Withers" wrote:
>
> I have been forwarding and replying to both sides, without my opinion. So here goes:
> First.
> The fact that Bruce had the respect and decency to get the approval and/or opinion of the AZVJC is a huge indicator that he cares more about the area and trail rather than
> money and is a very open minded individual. He has a lot of respect and concern for the sport.
> Secondly.
> Doug's initial closed minded activist type attitude was as bad as a greenie. If he disagreed he should have pointed out why and offered alternatives.
>
> I love the area too, especially right b4 he mine and the sluice. So I would love to keep the area open too.
39792 From: JW <joew@a...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 3:15pm
Subject: RE: Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
Before anyone wastes any more time debating this... why don't you guys take
a few moments and think about this issue.
How many of you believe that anyone... and I mean ANYONE is going to be able
to make a business enterprise out of trucking people up Martinez canyon?
Do you really believe that many people are going to pay to take a dirty,
dusty ride down a LONG dirt road to get back to the scenic portion?
Do you really believe that two people are going to be able to make a living
off of what they could possibly bring in?
Lets see... an hour to get to the trail head, 90 minutes or so on the trail
(assuming they stop at the mill area), an hour to get out. 3 hours 30
minutes per trip minimum... probably more like 4 to 5 after people get out
for a break.
Wait! What about the time it takes to just GET to the dirt road... add 1
hour. Add 1 hour to get back home.
What are we up to now? 7 hours for a round trip?
Please... One trip per weekend? (at 7 hours anyway). Even if my time
estimates are off by a factor of two, who is going to make money at this?
If there is a SINGLE person out there who believes that ANYONE is going to
make enough money to survive at this endeavor, I've got some swamp land to
sell you.
This is not like the Pink Jeep tours... 20 minutes from town and LOTS of
tourists. This is a LONG DUSTY ride in more not so pretty conditions for
MOST of the tour (unless you like dust).
This endeavor is going to fail. I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt.
And just for the record ladies and gentlemen; I believe that they have just
as much a right to be there as we do. Period.
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 3:46 PM
> To: DougB; AZVJC (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
>
>
> I agree with Doug. Pick another trail. Martinez Canyon is too
> beautiful to
> be lost. Start proposing commercial ventures in to it and it
> will be shut
> down for sure. There has to be other trails that can be used for this
> purpose.
>
> Chris K
>
> > From: "DougB" <azjeep@h...>
> > Organization: @home
> > Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:05:11 -0700
> > To: "AZVJC \(E-mail\)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Ross Skinner"
> > <rskinner@s...>
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> >
> > Ross - I would certainly agree with your statement...which
> is why AzVJC
> > adopting the trail is a good idea - that will do something
> positive to keep
> > it open.
> >
> > The big issue here is the commercialization of the trail.
> This will elevate
> > it to a much higher level of scrutiny. The Martinez Canyon
> area is already
> > under a microscope, and I guess there are some that either
> don't realize
> > this, or don't care. We need to look out for the long term
> relative to
> > access.
> >
> > My point is that is the wrong trail to try to commercialize.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ross Skinner" <rskinner@s...>
> > To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:44 PM
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> >
> >
> >> I guess we have a very BAD image of other tour companies
> David/Bruce.
> >>
> >> The Sedona people really have screwed it up in that area
> and are a pain in
> >> the butt. Since I own a business I can relate to your
> wanting to use a
> >> resource and profit from it..that is OKAY. Now the trick
> is to do it so
> >> interest groups don't put your head on a plater. My main
> worry with this
> > is
> >> not one Unimog, but dozens of Hummers and Pink jeeps once
> they discover
> > your
> >> successful trail tour.
> >>
> >> As a point in your favor, the AZVJC has put more
> riggs(less then capable)
> > on
> >> that trail then all other groups/businesses combined. So,
> we have some
> >> burden as well.
> >>
> >> Ross
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@h...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:08 PM
> >> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: FW: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Doug and others,
> >>
> >> Note, I used the fictitious acronym below in the rewording
> of Doug's
> >> E-mail. GFIOEBU = Greenies For the Eradication Of Everyone But Us.
> >> Highlighted text are portions that I changed.
> >>
> >> "While doing background work to fight the OHV USERS GROUP,
> the thought
> >> occurred to me to check to see if that trail had been adopted by a
> >> HIKING CLUB. My thought there was to alert them to the
> desire of a 4x4
> >> club to make this a RECREATIONAL destination and enlist their
> >> involvement in stopping this.
> >>
> >> Anyway, I don't believe this trail has been adopted by anyone, so I
> >> thought I'd post the question to the group. There's been talk about
> >> GFIOEBU involvement in trail issues (which has been great in the
> >> past)...."
> >>
> >> David, Do you see the danger here? Put a Sierra Club hat
> on his head
> >> and he would fit right in. Man! I really don't understand
> all of the
> >> hostility. We're all on the same team. No? I'd like
> EVERYONE to have
> >> the right to enjoy the land.
> >>
> >> What's with this "pink unimog tours" thing. You would
> think we were the
> >> evil empire! We are TWO GUYS AND A UNIMOG! Cripes! And
> it's not pink!
> >> Also, what's so wrong with commercial enterprises. Mix
> entrepreneur
> >> spirit with a genuine concern for our land and you have
> very positive
> >> combination. If we were independently wealthy my partner
> and I would do
> >> this for free! I enjoy it that much. But like most of us
> I need to
> >> feed the kids and pay the mortgage.
> >>
> >> Turning this into an "us against them" is only going to
> help those that
> >> want to shut everything down to everyone. I hope the jeep
> clubs goal is
> >> to preserve the trails fore EVERYONE to use. Not just a
> select few.
> >> The only way this is going to happen is through policing.
> Policing of
> >> ourselves and others. You see somebody being stupid, jeep
> club member
> >> or other wise, get a plate #, if possible a picture, and
> turn them in!
> >> You see a tour company damaging something DEFIANTLY turn
> them in. They
> >> have been given the PRIVILEGE of financial gain on public land and
> >> should be held to a higher standard. Banning certain
> people and not
> >> others is BIG TIME WRONG. The only people who should be banned are
> >> those that break the laws and disrespect the land. Once
> again, this
> >> will only happen through policing.
> >>
> >> Dave. I'd like to think that some of your more vocal jeep
> club members
> >> have good intentions. And after reading some of the
> e-mail you have
> >> been forwarding I can say yes they do. But some of this
> knee-jerk get
> >> them off of OUR land reactionism is sad. I don't like
> being clumped
> >> together with the tour companies that supposedly tear up
> the desert.
> >> This is far from the truth. Yeh, I'll be making a buck
> out their and
> >> THAT'S OK. But I'll also be educating the people I tour about all
> >> (yours and mine) of our concerns regarding land use and
> abuse. Not to
> >> mention cleaning up the trails. I don't understand why
> tour company
> >> don't if what your club members say is true. That desert
> is their bread
> >> and butter and keeping it healthy is in their best
> interests. At least
> >> it's in mine.
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
39793 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 3:20pm
Subject: Re: Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
Joe,
Throw in an "overnight western experience" and touristas will flock to
them! There is (was) a tour company that took visitors 4-wheeling in the
San Tans, set up camp, fed them, told them a bunch of cowboy stories,
sang around the camp fire, and taught them how to shoot. Something like
a mini-dude ranch. Except the tour company doing this never bothered
with permits or cleaning up after themselves.
Linda
JW wrote:
>
> Before anyone wastes any more time debating this... why don't you guys take
> a few moments and think about this issue.
>
> How many of you believe that anyone... and I mean ANYONE is going to be able
> to make a business enterprise out of trucking people up Martinez canyon?
>
> Do you really believe that many people are going to pay to take a dirty,
> dusty ride down a LONG dirt road to get back to the scenic portion?
>
> Do you really believe that two people are going to be able to make a living
> off of what they could possibly bring in?
>
> Lets see... an hour to get to the trail head, 90 minutes or so on the trail
> (assuming they stop at the mill area), an hour to get out. 3 hours 30
> minutes per trip minimum... probably more like 4 to 5 after people get out
> for a break.
>
> Wait! What about the time it takes to just GET to the dirt road... add 1
> hour. Add 1 hour to get back home.
>
> What are we up to now? 7 hours for a round trip?
>
> Please... One trip per weekend? (at 7 hours anyway). Even if my time
> estimates are off by a factor of two, who is going to make money at this?
>
> If there is a SINGLE person out there who believes that ANYONE is going to
> make enough money to survive at this endeavor, I've got some swamp land to
> sell you.
>
> This is not like the Pink Jeep tours... 20 minutes from town and LOTS of
> tourists. This is a LONG DUSTY ride in more not so pretty conditions for
> MOST of the tour (unless you like dust).
>
> This endeavor is going to fail. I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt.
>
> And just for the record ladies and gentlemen; I believe that they have just
> as much a right to be there as we do. Period.
>
> Joe West
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 3:46 PM
> > To: DougB; AZVJC (E-mail)
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> >
> >
> > I agree with Doug. Pick another trail. Martinez Canyon is too
> > beautiful to
> > be lost. Start proposing commercial ventures in to it and it
> > will be shut
> > down for sure. There has to be other trails that can be used for this
> > purpose.
> >
> > Chris K
> >
> > > From: "DougB" <azjeep@h...>
> > > Organization: @home
> > > Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:05:11 -0700
> > > To: "AZVJC \(E-mail\)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Ross Skinner"
> > > <rskinner@s...>
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> > >
> > > Ross - I would certainly agree with your statement...which
> > is why AzVJC
> > > adopting the trail is a good idea - that will do something
> > positive to keep
> > > it open.
> > >
> > > The big issue here is the commercialization of the trail.
> > This will elevate
> > > it to a much higher level of scrutiny. The Martinez Canyon
> > area is already
> > > under a microscope, and I guess there are some that either
> > don't realize
> > > this, or don't care. We need to look out for the long term
> > relative to
> > > access.
> > >
> > > My point is that is the wrong trail to try to commercialize.
> > >
> > > Doug
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ross Skinner" <rskinner@s...>
> > > To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:44 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> > >
> > >
> > >> I guess we have a very BAD image of other tour companies
> > David/Bruce.
> > >>
> > >> The Sedona people really have screwed it up in that area
> > and are a pain in
> > >> the butt. Since I own a business I can relate to your
> > wanting to use a
> > >> resource and profit from it..that is OKAY. Now the trick
> > is to do it so
> > >> interest groups don't put your head on a plater. My main
> > worry with this
> > > is
> > >> not one Unimog, but dozens of Hummers and Pink jeeps once
> > they discover
> > > your
> > >> successful trail tour.
> > >>
> > >> As a point in your favor, the AZVJC has put more
> > riggs(less then capable)
> > > on
> > >> that trail then all other groups/businesses combined. So,
> > we have some
> > >> burden as well.
> > >>
> > >> Ross
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@h...]
> > >> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:08 PM
> > >> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Subject: FW: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Doug and others,
> > >>
> > >> Note, I used the fictitious acronym below in the rewording
> > of Doug's
> > >> E-mail. GFIOEBU = Greenies For the Eradication Of Everyone But Us.
> > >> Highlighted text are portions that I changed.
> > >>
> > >> "While doing background work to fight the OHV USERS GROUP,
> > the thought
> > >> occurred to me to check to see if that trail had been adopted by a
> > >> HIKING CLUB. My thought there was to alert them to the
> > desire of a 4x4
> > >> club to make this a RECREATIONAL destination and enlist their
> > >> involvement in stopping this.
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, I don't believe this trail has been adopted by anyone, so I
> > >> thought I'd post the question to the group. There's been talk about
> > >> GFIOEBU involvement in trail issues (which has been great in the
> > >> past)...."
> > >>
> > >> David, Do you see the danger here? Put a Sierra Club hat
> > on his head
> > >> and he would fit right in. Man! I really don't understand
> > all of the
> > >> hostility. We're all on the same team. No? I'd like
> > EVERYONE to have
> > >> the right to enjoy the land.
> > >>
> > >> What's with this "pink unimog tours" thing. You would
> > think we were the
> > >> evil empire! We are TWO GUYS AND A UNIMOG! Cripes! And
> > it's not pink!
> > >> Also, what's so wrong with commercial enterprises. Mix
> > entrepreneur
> > >> spirit with a genuine concern for our land and you have
> > very positive
> > >> combination. If we were independently wealthy my partner
> > and I would do
> > >> this for free! I enjoy it that much. But like most of us
> > I need to
> > >> feed the kids and pay the mortgage.
> > >>
> > >> Turning this into an "us against them" is only going to
> > help those that
> > >> want to shut everything down to everyone. I hope the jeep
> > clubs goal is
> > >> to preserve the trails fore EVERYONE to use. Not just a
> > select few.
> > >> The only way this is going to happen is through policing.
> > Policing of
> > >> ourselves and others. You see somebody being stupid, jeep
> > club member
> > >> or other wise, get a plate #, if possible a picture, and
> > turn them in!
> > >> You see a tour company damaging something DEFIANTLY turn
> > them in. They
> > >> have been given the PRIVILEGE of financial gain on public land and
> > >> should be held to a higher standard. Banning certain
> > people and not
> > >> others is BIG TIME WRONG. The only people who should be banned are
> > >> those that break the laws and disrespect the land. Once
> > again, this
> > >> will only happen through policing.
> > >>
> > >> Dave. I'd like to think that some of your more vocal jeep
> > club members
> > >> have good intentions. And after reading some of the
> > e-mail you have
> > >> been forwarding I can say yes they do. But some of this
> > knee-jerk get
> > >> them off of OUR land reactionism is sad. I don't like
> > being clumped
> > >> together with the tour companies that supposedly tear up
> > the desert.
> > >> This is far from the truth. Yeh, I'll be making a buck
> > out their and
> > >> THAT'S OK. But I'll also be educating the people I tour about all
> > >> (yours and mine) of our concerns regarding land use and
> > abuse. Not to
> > >> mention cleaning up the trails. I don't understand why
> > tour company
> > >> don't if what your club members say is true. That desert
> > is their bread
> > >> and butter and keeping it healthy is in their best
> > interests. At least
> > >> it's in mine.
> > >>
> > >> Bruce
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
39794 From: chrissample1 <chrissample1@y...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 4:02pm
Subject: Re: OT Radio Shack in Mesa is going out of business
Damn, and I just bought a CB and antenna from Radio Shack at
Superstition Springs mall last weekend. Probably could've save a few
bucks.
Chris Sample
95 ZJ 3.5" lift and 32's
--- In az_vjc@y..., "David R. W. Withers" <dr_ww@h...> wrote:
> Southern and Country Club
> 20% to 40% off.
> If anyone is interested.
>
> David R. W. Withers
> Desk: 480.551.4667
> Mobile: 480.215.6992
39795 From: JW <joew@a...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 4:01pm
Subject: RE: Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
Linda,
I'm talking about making enough money to live on... and the word tour has
been used by the gentlemen who wish to use this trail, not overnight western
experience. And even if their idea was changed to overnight western
experience... they would still be doomed to fail. Notice your use of the
term (was) in your response below. The tour company you mention failed...
just as this one will fail if the gentlemen try to make a go at it.
Nothing about this business endeavor makes sense from a profit standpoint.
The idea fails even if you look at it in simplistic terms; and once you
start digging into the details you see that we are all wasting our time even
discussing it.
To summarize; they have a right to do whatever they want to do... and on any
public trail that they wish to do it on as long as they get the proper
permits. I sincerely hope that they don't waste their time trying to set
anything up because they seem like nice guys... but it won't take long for
them to see the light if they do start something.
Kind Regards,
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: linda luik [mailto:minihummer@w...]
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 4:20 PM
> To: joew@a...
> Cc: 'Chris Krieg'; 'DougB'; 'AZVJC (E-mail)'
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
>
>
> Joe,
>
> Throw in an "overnight western experience" and touristas will flock to
> them! There is (was) a tour company that took visitors
> 4-wheeling in the
> San Tans, set up camp, fed them, told them a bunch of cowboy stories,
> sang around the camp fire, and taught them how to shoot.
> Something like
> a mini-dude ranch. Except the tour company doing this never bothered
> with permits or cleaning up after themselves.
>
> Linda
>
> JW wrote:
> >
> > Before anyone wastes any more time debating this... why
> don't you guys take
> > a few moments and think about this issue.
> >
> > How many of you believe that anyone... and I mean ANYONE is
> going to be able
> > to make a business enterprise out of trucking people up
> Martinez canyon?
> >
> > Do you really believe that many people are going to pay to
> take a dirty,
> > dusty ride down a LONG dirt road to get back to the scenic portion?
> >
> > Do you really believe that two people are going to be able
> to make a living
> > off of what they could possibly bring in?
> >
> > Lets see... an hour to get to the trail head, 90 minutes or
> so on the trail
> > (assuming they stop at the mill area), an hour to get out.
> 3 hours 30
> > minutes per trip minimum... probably more like 4 to 5 after
> people get out
> > for a break.
> >
> > Wait! What about the time it takes to just GET to the dirt
> road... add 1
> > hour. Add 1 hour to get back home.
> >
> > What are we up to now? 7 hours for a round trip?
> >
> > Please... One trip per weekend? (at 7 hours anyway). Even
> if my time
> > estimates are off by a factor of two, who is going to make
> money at this?
> >
> > If there is a SINGLE person out there who believes that
> ANYONE is going to
> > make enough money to survive at this endeavor, I've got
> some swamp land to
> > sell you.
> >
> > This is not like the Pink Jeep tours... 20 minutes from
> town and LOTS of
> > tourists. This is a LONG DUSTY ride in more not so pretty
> conditions for
> > MOST of the tour (unless you like dust).
> >
> > This endeavor is going to fail. I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt.
> >
> > And just for the record ladies and gentlemen; I believe
> that they have just
> > as much a right to be there as we do. Period.
> >
> > Joe West
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 3:46 PM
> > > To: DougB; AZVJC (E-mail)
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree with Doug. Pick another trail. Martinez Canyon is too
> > > beautiful to
> > > be lost. Start proposing commercial ventures in to it and it
> > > will be shut
> > > down for sure. There has to be other trails that can be
> used for this
> > > purpose.
> > >
> > > Chris K
> > >
> > > > From: "DougB" <azjeep@h...>
> > > > Organization: @home
> > > > Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:05:11 -0700
> > > > To: "AZVJC \(E-mail\)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Ross Skinner"
> > > > <rskinner@s...>
> > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> > > >
> > > > Ross - I would certainly agree with your statement...which
> > > is why AzVJC
> > > > adopting the trail is a good idea - that will do something
> > > positive to keep
> > > > it open.
> > > >
> > > > The big issue here is the commercialization of the trail.
> > > This will elevate
> > > > it to a much higher level of scrutiny. The Martinez Canyon
> > > area is already
> > > > under a microscope, and I guess there are some that either
> > > don't realize
> > > > this, or don't care. We need to look out for the long term
> > > relative to
> > > > access.
> > > >
> > > > My point is that is the wrong trail to try to commercialize.
> > > >
> > > > Doug
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ross Skinner" <rskinner@s...>
> > > > To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:44 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> I guess we have a very BAD image of other tour companies
> > > David/Bruce.
> > > >>
> > > >> The Sedona people really have screwed it up in that area
> > > and are a pain in
> > > >> the butt. Since I own a business I can relate to your
> > > wanting to use a
> > > >> resource and profit from it..that is OKAY. Now the trick
> > > is to do it so
> > > >> interest groups don't put your head on a plater. My main
> > > worry with this
> > > > is
> > > >> not one Unimog, but dozens of Hummers and Pink jeeps once
> > > they discover
> > > > your
> > > >> successful trail tour.
> > > >>
> > > >> As a point in your favor, the AZVJC has put more
> > > riggs(less then capable)
> > > > on
> > > >> that trail then all other groups/businesses combined. So,
> > > we have some
> > > >> burden as well.
> > > >>
> > > >> Ross
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@h...]
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:08 PM
> > > >> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Subject: FW: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Doug and others,
> > > >>
> > > >> Note, I used the fictitious acronym below in the rewording
> > > of Doug's
> > > >> E-mail. GFIOEBU = Greenies For the Eradication Of
> Everyone But Us.
> > > >> Highlighted text are portions that I changed.
> > > >>
> > > >> "While doing background work to fight the OHV USERS GROUP,
> > > the thought
> > > >> occurred to me to check to see if that trail had been
> adopted by a
> > > >> HIKING CLUB. My thought there was to alert them to the
> > > desire of a 4x4
> > > >> club to make this a RECREATIONAL destination and enlist their
> > > >> involvement in stopping this.
> > > >>
> > > >> Anyway, I don't believe this trail has been adopted by
> anyone, so I
> > > >> thought I'd post the question to the group. There's
> been talk about
> > > >> GFIOEBU involvement in trail issues (which has been
> great in the
> > > >> past)...."
> > > >>
> > > >> David, Do you see the danger here? Put a Sierra Club hat
> > > on his head
> > > >> and he would fit right in. Man! I really don't understand
> > > all of the
> > > >> hostility. We're all on the same team. No? I'd like
> > > EVERYONE to have
> > > >> the right to enjoy the land.
> > > >>
> > > >> What's with this "pink unimog tours" thing. You would
> > > think we were the
> > > >> evil empire! We are TWO GUYS AND A UNIMOG! Cripes! And
> > > it's not pink!
> > > >> Also, what's so wrong with commercial enterprises. Mix
> > > entrepreneur
> > > >> spirit with a genuine concern for our land and you have
> > > very positive
> > > >> combination. If we were independently wealthy my partner
> > > and I would do
> > > >> this for free! I enjoy it that much. But like most of us
> > > I need to
> > > >> feed the kids and pay the mortgage.
> > > >>
> > > >> Turning this into an "us against them" is only going to
> > > help those that
> > > >> want to shut everything down to everyone. I hope the jeep
> > > clubs goal is
> > > >> to preserve the trails fore EVERYONE to use. Not just a
> > > select few.
> > > >> The only way this is going to happen is through policing.
> > > Policing of
> > > >> ourselves and others. You see somebody being stupid, jeep
> > > club member
> > > >> or other wise, get a plate #, if possible a picture, and
> > > turn them in!
> > > >> You see a tour company damaging something DEFIANTLY turn
> > > them in. They
> > > >> have been given the PRIVILEGE of financial gain on
> public land and
> > > >> should be held to a higher standard. Banning certain
> > > people and not
> > > >> others is BIG TIME WRONG. The only people who should
> be banned are
> > > >> those that break the laws and disrespect the land. Once
> > > again, this
> > > >> will only happen through policing.
> > > >>
> > > >> Dave. I'd like to think that some of your more vocal jeep
> > > club members
> > > >> have good intentions. And after reading some of the
> > > e-mail you have
> > > >> been forwarding I can say yes they do. But some of this
> > > knee-jerk get
> > > >> them off of OUR land reactionism is sad. I don't like
> > > being clumped
> > > >> together with the tour companies that supposedly tear up
> > > the desert.
> > > >> This is far from the truth. Yeh, I'll be making a buck
> > > out their and
> > > >> THAT'S OK. But I'll also be educating the people I
> tour about all
> > > >> (yours and mine) of our concerns regarding land use and
> > > abuse. Not to
> > > >> mention cleaning up the trails. I don't understand why
> > > tour company
> > > >> don't if what your club members say is true. That desert
> > > is their bread
> > > >> and butter and keeping it healthy is in their best
> > > interests. At least
> > > >> it's in mine.
> > > >>
> > > >> Bruce
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
39796 From: bermboy2000 <bermboy@h...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 4:27pm
Subject: On the road again!!!
Well, thanks to the club and a few very helpful members, I am now on
the road again. (Rather be on the trail thoughThanks again guys.
Scott Maiden
93 YJ SOA
39797 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 5:05pm
Subject: [FS] tow hitch for yj
Price: make an offer
Contact: jason merrill
had on my yj then sold it. has reciever and ball 602-722-9391
Jason Merrill
39798 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 5:05pm
Subject: 4x4 Tour Companies in the Flo-Junct area
All,
I just received an email from Sandee McCullen about tour companies
working in this area. Apparently the BLM issued a permit to a HUMMER
tour company in Q4 of last year. The tour company's permit is for
Mineral Mtn Rd, including Box Canyon, and a side trip to Martinez
Canyon. The tour vehicles can go no further than the first stream
crossing and their customers have to walk from there.
Sandee also mentioned that the BLM is considering a vehicle size limit
for access into Martinez Canyon. This is to stop certain sized vehicles
from accessing it (sounds like discrimination to me). I guess the idea
is is that a smaller vehicle can do less damage. No comment!
So, if you see a 4x4 tour company vehicle further into Martinez Canyon,
let the BLM know. They aren't supposed to be there. I like Doug's idea
of adopting the Martinez Canyon trail, kind of a "Friends of Martinez
Canyon" type thing, but since not all AZVJCers are into the tough
trails, I would suggest including the trail to the cabins too. We can't
do much about vandalism, but as a group, when any of us are out there,
we can do our part by packing out more than we pack in.
What I am really surprised is that the tour companies are not driving
FR4 between Superior and Mineral Mtn Rd. It is much more scenic and the
terrain changes are much more dramatic.
Linda
39799 From: pebble007 <jawooten@h...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 5:42pm
Subject: Re: Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
Joe,
You have hit the nail on the head. When I was driving tours we
would do a minimum of two tours a day with a possible 3rd "dinner"
tour out by pinnacle peak. Profitability is based on turn around
time. The tour companies like to find several established routes
close to tourist hotels. To go to any trail in florence juntion area
would be profit prohibitive. There are plenty of places to go where
the impact is minimal and driving distances short.
Thanks
josh
99 TJ -HOMER-
--- In az_vjc@y..., "JW" <joew@a...> wrote:
> Before anyone wastes any more time debating this... why don't you
guys take
> a few moments and think about this issue.
>
> How many of you believe that anyone... and I mean ANYONE is going
to be able
> to make a business enterprise out of trucking people up Martinez
canyon?
>
> Do you really believe that many people are going to pay to take a
dirty,
> dusty ride down a LONG dirt road to get back to the scenic portion?
>
> Do you really believe that two people are going to be able to make
a living
> off of what they could possibly bring in?
>
> Lets see... an hour to get to the trail head, 90 minutes or so on
the trail
> (assuming they stop at the mill area), an hour to get out. 3 hours
30
> minutes per trip minimum... probably more like 4 to 5 after people
get out
> for a break.
>
> Wait! What about the time it takes to just GET to the dirt road...
add 1
> hour. Add 1 hour to get back home.
>
> What are we up to now? 7 hours for a round trip?
>
> Please... One trip per weekend? (at 7 hours anyway). Even if my
time
> estimates are off by a factor of two, who is going to make money at
this?
>
> If there is a SINGLE person out there who believes that ANYONE is
going to
> make enough money to survive at this endeavor, I've got some swamp
land to
> sell you.
>
> This is not like the Pink Jeep tours... 20 minutes from town and
LOTS of
> tourists. This is a LONG DUSTY ride in more not so pretty
conditions for
> MOST of the tour (unless you like dust).
>
> This endeavor is going to fail. I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt.
>
> And just for the record ladies and gentlemen; I believe that they
have just
> as much a right to be there as we do. Period.
>
> Joe West
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 3:46 PM
> > To: DougB; AZVJC (E-mail)
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> >
> >
> > I agree with Doug. Pick another trail. Martinez Canyon is too
> > beautiful to
> > be lost. Start proposing commercial ventures in to it and it
> > will be shut
> > down for sure. There has to be other trails that can be used for
this
> > purpose.
> >
> > Chris K
> >
> > > From: "DougB" <azjeep@h...>
> > > Organization: @home
> > > Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:05:11 -0700
> > > To: "AZVJC \(E-mail\)" <az_vjc@y...>, "Ross Skinner"
> > > <rskinner@s...>
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> > >
> > > Ross - I would certainly agree with your statement...which
> > is why AzVJC
> > > adopting the trail is a good idea - that will do something
> > positive to keep
> > > it open.
> > >
> > > The big issue here is the commercialization of the trail.
> > This will elevate
> > > it to a much higher level of scrutiny. The Martinez Canyon
> > area is already
> > > under a microscope, and I guess there are some that either
> > don't realize
> > > this, or don't care. We need to look out for the long term
> > relative to
> > > access.
> > >
> > > My point is that is the wrong trail to try to commercialize.
> > >
> > > Doug
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ross Skinner" <rskinner@s...>
> > > To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@y...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:44 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> > >
> > >
> > >> I guess we have a very BAD image of other tour companies
> > David/Bruce.
> > >>
> > >> The Sedona people really have screwed it up in that area
> > and are a pain in
> > >> the butt. Since I own a business I can relate to your
> > wanting to use a
> > >> resource and profit from it..that is OKAY. Now the trick
> > is to do it so
> > >> interest groups don't put your head on a plater. My main
> > worry with this
> > > is
> > >> not one Unimog, but dozens of Hummers and Pink jeeps once
> > they discover
> > > your
> > >> successful trail tour.
> > >>
> > >> As a point in your favor, the AZVJC has put more
> > riggs(less then capable)
> > > on
> > >> that trail then all other groups/businesses combined. So,
> > we have some
> > >> burden as well.
> > >>
> > >> Ross
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@h...]
> > >> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:08 PM
> > >> To: az_vjc@y...
> > >> Subject: FW: [az_vjc] Martinez Canyon and Pink Unimog issues
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Doug and others,
> > >>
> > >> Note, I used the fictitious acronym below in the rewording
> > of Doug's
> > >> E-mail. GFIOEBU = Greenies For the Eradication Of Everyone But
Us.
> > >> Highlighted text are portions that I changed.
> > >>
> > >> "While doing background work to fight the OHV USERS GROUP,
> > the thought
> > >> occurred to me to check to see if that trail had been adopted
by a
> > >> HIKING CLUB. My thought there was to alert them to the
> > desire of a 4x4
> > >> club to make this a RECREATIONAL destination and enlist their
> > >> involvement in stopping this.
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, I don't believe this trail has been adopted by anyone,
so I
> > >> thought I'd post the question to the group. There's been talk
about
> > >> GFIOEBU involvement in trail issues (which has been great in
the
> > >> past)...."
> > >>
> > >> David, Do you see the danger here? Put a Sierra Club hat
> > on his head
> > >> and he would fit right in. Man! I really don't understand
> > all of the
> > >> hostility. We're all on the same team. No? I'd like
> > EVERYONE to have
> > >> the right to enjoy the land.
> > >>
> > >> What's with this "pink unimog tours" thing. You would
> > think we were the
> > >> evil empire! We are TWO GUYS AND A UNIMOG! Cripes! And
> > it's not pink!
> > >> Also, what's so wrong with commercial enterprises. Mix
> > entrepreneur
> > >> spirit with a genuine concern for our land and you have
> > very positive
> > >> combination. If we were independently wealthy my partner
> > and I would do
> > >> this for free! I enjoy it that much. But like most of us
> > I need to
> > >> feed the kids and pay the mortgage.
> > >>
> > >> Turning this into an "us against them" is only going to
> > help those that
> > >> want to shut everything down to everyone. I hope the jeep
> > clubs goal is
> > >> to preserve the trails fore EVERYONE to use. Not just a
> > select few.
> > >> The only way this is going to happen is through policing.
> > Policing of
> > >> ourselves and others. You see somebody being stupid, jeep
> > club member
> > >> or other wise, get a plate #, if possible a picture, and
> > turn them in!
> > >> You see a tour company damaging something DEFIANTLY turn
> > them in. They
> > >> have been given the PRIVILEGE of financial gain on public land
and
> > >> should be held to a higher standard. Banning certain
> > people and not
> > >> others is BIG TIME WRONG. The only people who should be
banned are
> > >> those that break the laws and disrespect the land. Once
> > again, this
> > >> will only happen through policing.
> > >>
> > >> Dave. I'd like to think that some of your more vocal jeep
> > club members
> > >> have good intentions. And after reading some of the
> > e-mail you have
> > >> been forwarding I can say yes they do. But some of this
> > knee-jerk get
> > >> them off of OUR land reactionism is sad. I don't like
> > being clumped
> > >> together with the tour companies that supposedly tear up
> > the desert.
> > >> This is far from the truth. Yeh, I'll be making a buck
> > out their and
> > >> THAT'S OK. But I'll also be educating the people I tour about
all
> > >> (yours and mine) of our concerns regarding land use and
> > abuse. Not to
> > >> mention cleaning up the trails. I don't understand why
> > tour company
> > >> don't if what your club members say is true. That desert
> > is their bread
> > >> and butter and keeping it healthy is in their best
> > interests. At least
> > >> it's in mine.
> > >>
> > >> Bruce
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
39800 From: pebble007 <jawooten@h...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 5:44pm
Subject: spur cross trail
Just curious if the spur cross trail by cavcreek is currently
accessible. I have not been up there in a long time and the last I
heard BLM had closed it.
Thanks,
Josh 99 TJ -Homer-
39801 From: AzVJC Website <jayamccoy@j...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 5:54pm
Subject: [FS] FS - Complete151Iron Duke Engine For Sale
Price: Best offer
Contact: jayamccoy@juno.com
Complete engine from an 81 CJ-5. Was rebuilt and has less than 5,000 miles on it. Make an offer. I want it out of my garage......
Jay McCoy
39802 From: highjeeps <highupjeep@q...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:07pm
Subject: Re: 4x4 Tour Companies in the Flo-Junct area
Just a bit off the point, but I agree with your comment about the
scenery being great on the Mineral Mountain trail. I was up there on
the 31st (partly cloudy day with plenty to look at in the sky as well
as on the surrounding terrain). I almost drove off the trail a couple
times site seeing instead of the looking road. Drove back around to
where the Arizona(?) Trail (i.e., the hiking only portion of it)
starts.
Larry
--- In az_vjc@y..., linda luik <minihummer@w...> wrote:
> All,
>
> I just received an email from Sandee McCullen about tour companies
> working in this area. Apparently the BLM issued a permit to a HUMMER
> tour company in Q4 of last year. The tour company's permit is for
> Mineral Mtn Rd, including Box Canyon, and a side trip to Martinez
> Canyon. The tour vehicles can go no further than the first stream
> crossing and their customers have to walk from there.
>
> Sandee also mentioned that the BLM is considering a vehicle size
limit
> for access into Martinez Canyon. This is to stop certain sized
vehicles
> from accessing it (sounds like discrimination to me). I guess the
idea
> is is that a smaller vehicle can do less damage. No comment!
>
> So, if you see a 4x4 tour company vehicle further into Martinez
Canyon,
> let the BLM know. They aren't supposed to be there. I like Doug's
idea
> of adopting the Martinez Canyon trail, kind of a "Friends of
Martinez
> Canyon" type thing, but since not all AZVJCers are into the tough
> trails, I would suggest including the trail to the cabins too. We
can't
> do much about vandalism, but as a group, when any of us are out
there,
> we can do our part by packing out more than we pack in.
>
> What I am really surprised is that the tour companies are not
driving
> FR4 between Superior and Mineral Mtn Rd. It is much more scenic and
the
> terrain changes are much more dramatic.
>
> Linda
39803 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17pm
Subject: RE: Re: CB power source[Bronco One Bites!!!]
Dave,
Any metallic object in the near vicinity of an antenna will affect its
performance.
I personally have the base of my antenna right up against my spare tire. I
have no doubt what so ever that it causes some problem. But....my SWR is
well within a reason and I can talk to everyone on the trail....so, it does
not bother me. Other folks may experience a different outcome.
Stu
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: tjsr4r0cks [mailto:dkober@g...]
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 9:16 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: CB power source[Bronco One Bites!!!]
While I didn't get the bum's rush, I too was unimpressed with the
service at Bronco. Bronco is ALOT closer to my house then Apollo,
but Apollo had what I wanted, had the time to look at my rig and
where I wanted to mount my antenna, and make recommendations. I
probably paid more, but sometimes it worth it to just get on with
your life. Also someone I met on a trail ride mentioned Bronco had
told him if you mount your antenna next to your spare tire the steel
belts will interfere with the operation. It sounded fishy to me, but
I'm no expert. Stu, any comment on the steel belt phenomenon.
Dave
99 TJ
--- In az_vjc@y..., "my1stjeep" <my1stjeep@e...> wrote:
> I wouldn't buy anything from Bronco One. Not sure who the sales
> person was there, but my wife went there on a recommendation to get
me
> a Christmas present, a CB, the antenna and any other goodies she
could
> find.
>
> She was treated like crap. She was made to feel like an idiot and
> that she was wasting their time. The more she asked questions so
she
> could get me the right set up, the more impatient they grew. Guess
> whoever it was had a hot date, but their lack of customer service
will
> keep me from spending a dime in their store. Either that or they
have
> no patience if a customer is not 100% sure of exactly what they
want
> and are asking questions, or maybe they don't know the answers so
they
> rather you not ask.
>
> My wife then went to Apollo Communications(4322 W. Northern).
There
> they talked to her like a human being, listened to what she wanted,
> explained to her the good points and bad points of certain
equipment
> and spent alot of time making sure she was happy with what she
bought.
> What I got for Christmas was perfect!!!
>
> If you want customer service go to Apollo.
>
> Chris
> "AzA"---------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Nick Gasmena" <horizon@h...> wrote:
> > Bronco One. Talk to Allen. He owns the store, and is a REAL
friend
> to
> > fellow wheelers. He owns a lifted TJ with a whole bunch of
> doodads... And
> > a Jeep Liberty. Be carefull... He might talk you into buying a
GPS
> while
> > your there too! (good thing to have)
> >
> > He is located off of Cave Creek and Bell'ish
> >
> > Nick Gasmena - nickg@h...
> > -----------------------
> > Horizon Web Site - Http://www.HuskiesOnline.Com
> > My Jeep Pictures - http://www.azvjc.org/Gallery/View.asp?U=1637
> > My 4x4 Site - Http://www.huskiesonline.com/offroad
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "jeepindog" <jeepindog@y...>
> > To: <az_vjc@y...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 10:20 PM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] CB power source
> >
> >
> > > Has anyone wired their CB power into a cigar lighter plug,
so
> > > that it could be easily removed to prevent theft? I think I
will
> try
> > > this for a while and see if it's alright, otherwise, if the
cord
> is
> > > always in my way, I could just hard wire it with a disconnect
in
> the
> > > line, also making it theft proof.
> > >
> > > Where should I buy my antenna? And how do I find the
place
> you
> > > suggest? I have heard on Bronco 1, but know not where it is.
> > >
> > > TIA,
> > >
> > > Lachlan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
39804 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:27pm
Subject: RE: Re: price quick ***UPDATE***
Did you ask him if car convertible owners have to have an adder for their
rag top? They too are removable and often times have a plastic rear window.
DOH!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: jetowle2000 [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 11:27 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: price quick ***UPDATE***
My insurance agent said, since the soft top is removable and the
windows are plastic, then it is not covered by the full coverage
glass policy. Further, this is what I get for opening my mouth, since
the top is a bolt on item it needs to be covered by an adder to my to
my policy. I questioned them saying, it was a stock item and this, to
them, didn't matter.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...> wrote:
> My insurance agent just asked for a value on my soft top including
the
> windows & upper half doors, does anyone have an idea?
>
> TIA
>
> --James
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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